The Heavy Table posted on Tuesday that there could be a Trader Joe’s going in at 23rd and Lyndale and mentioned this important fact:
There’s a 2000-foot spacing requirement for off-sale liquor licenses due to a state statutory regulation but Trader Joe’s may get an exception. (PDF)
The comments on that item mostly centered around what kind of competition Trader Joe’s would provide for The Wedge Natural Foods Co-op, the whole corporate vs local thing, the issue of what kind of development is useful/appropriate/good for the neighborhood, and how the parking and traffic in that area is already terrible and this will just make it worse. Lots of really good stuff in there. [UPDATED: Uptown Urbanist weighs in on all of those issues.]
The Wedge immediately made a fuss. What became apparent to me over Twitter in the last day or so is that the issue is not TJ’s grocery store, it’s the liquor license. I think we’re all a little salty over Minnesota’s blue laws and the fact that, despite a pretty good lobbying effort, unclenching our collective anus over liquor sales in grocery stores has not been a high priority item in the legislature. It’s understandable to me why The Wedge would be concerned about that.
Fox 9 explains the key difference.
But what makes Trader Joe’s different than all those other stores it that it has a separate entrance, exit and checkout, making it perfectly legal.
Okay, I get all that. Here’s my thing. Justin asks an excellent question:
@The_Wedge Maybe dumb question, but have *you* asked for a variance to sell wine? Seems like TJ’s just had the guts to ask.
To which The Wedge’s designated Tweeter replies:
@justinph Not a dumb question. No, we never have. We didn’t want to step on Humm’s business. But TJ on our doorstep changes everything.
Plus, they said this on facebook:
Trader Joe’s is requesting an unfair advantage over us. They want a state liquor license variance in order to sell wine and beer. Whole Foods tried and didn’t get one back in 1995. Kowalski’s, Lund’s, nor any of the local natural foods co-ops in the city limits have one — so why does Trader Joe’s earn the right?
Whole Foods tried and didn’t get one, so no one else has bothered in the last 15 years?
I get why The Wedge is pissed on principle, but if they never even bothered to ask, or never considered the separate entrance part they really ought to pipe down. They’re obviously itchin’ for a fight with language like “TJ on our doorstep changes everything” and “Locals against the Big Dogs.” (BTW, they’re working with Humm’s? To do what, exactly? Just to kill the TJ’s project? I tweeted asking and will update if I get an answer.)
This Heavy Table commenter speaks well to that point.
The problem is the law in Minneapolis has strict geographical separation of liquor license provision. I believe it’s one mile as the crow flies from property line to property line. Notice no competition for Henn Lake anywhere else in Uptown (Phil Colich is mafia like in his protection of his business). So what Trader Joe’s is trying to do is get a variance, and therefore the Wedge rightfully is wondering about their possibility as well. Uptown Urbanist is right … Hum’s has the license to begin with, so they should be mad as hell.
So in that sense, yes, Humm’s should be pissed. But what about this part? Correct me if I’m wrong, but the typical Hum’s customer is totally not the kind of person that frequents The Wedge. If I were Humm’s, I guess I’d be more concerned about Two (or Three) Buck Chuck than whatever organic wine The Wedge is gonna have.
The Wedge posted this on facebook as part of an update on the situation.
On April 10, the city council approved support (7-6 in favor) for a house bill allowing a special liquor license for 2309 Lyndale Avenue S., the proposed site for a new Trader Joe’s, a block south of the Wedge Co-op.
Now the bill goes to the Minnesota State Legislature, where, unfortunately, the Wedge’s voice will be muted by State influences and priorities. If the measure passes, that won’t be the end, though. The proposal will then come back to the City for public input, further consideration, and a final vote.
Emphasis mine. I’d like to know a little more about that particular statement. Plus, if that’s the legislative path to make this happen, I don’t really see it happening. If the end result is that all grocery stores qualify for liquor licenses, that’s cool (though there’s still the matter of that 2,000-foot proximity issue). I’m down with that.
I just think The Wedge should be more careful/clear how they articulate their complaint. They’re coming off as whiney babies. Use the specific case of TJ’s as a supporting argument for resurrecting the larger issue of the proximity restriction or of grocery store liquor licenses. Don’t just stamp your foot and yell, “It’s not fair!”
Ya think? What am I missing?
UPDATE 5/18/09: The legislature has chosen to ignore not to act on the issue. If it’s a city ordinance, I don’t understand why it went to the legislature in the first place, but okay. Kinda seems like the city council doesn’t want to take full responsibility for this one. (Via David Brauer.)
22 Comments
Great roundup on the Wedge / Trader Joe’s / liquor laws news this week.
I agree completely. I’m giving the Wedge one more day to shut up about the whole thing, or I’m going boycott mode until they do. Everyone knows the separate door rule. And if they haven’t asked, how can they bitch?
I like The Wedge a lot, and they have a right to raise a stink if they want. I’ll still shop there. But the thing that gets me is that they seem to be using it as a proxy issue for the competition TJ’s will offer. I can’t think of any other reason. If they haven’t asked to get a liquor license, then why raise the fuss. Even if they *could* get a liquor license, where would the sell the liquor? That store is packed enough as it is.
That said, I think there’s plenty of merit to not give TJ’s the variance. The last thing 23rd and Lyndale needs is more traffic and less parking. But I bet the city sees dollar signs in permits and taxes, so they’re going for it.
I agree that the Wedge’s – and the Wedge’s vocal supporters – are not putting their best foot forward. The issue all comes down to the liquor license thing; I can see them being angry if they had asked for the same set-up as TJ’s wants and were denied, but they’re twisting the issue around in misleading ways.
The other thing that really bugs me about the debate is that many of the Wedge supporters don’t want to acknowledge that many of the TJ’s shoppers will come from the neighborhood. Not all, of course, but they’re not all coming in from the suburbs, either (because there’s always a rush of the Wedge/Whittier hipster-types to bash the evil suburbanites who venture down their streets – even though the Wedge has plenty of customers from the ‘burbs, condo-living Yuppies included.) That’s not the Wedge’s fault, of course, but I don’t like the righteous elitism I detect there.
I’m not, by the way, a supporter of one place over the other – I like the fact that the Wedge is local, and think that they provide a valuable local service – but I think the’re turning off some of their customers by appearing to be trying to manipulate the conversation and squash real debate in the interest of eliminating the possibility of competition. I’d be happy giving both TJ’s and the Wedge liquor licences and calling it a day.
Hi, I’m Barth Anderson, the Wedge’s proxy Tweeter.
Yes, the Wedge is very concerned about a Trader Joe’s opening up one half block away from us. While competition is certainly part of our concern, the potential liquor variance is the far more immediate issue.
First off, yes, the prospect of a giant competitor within a couple thousand feet would be unnerving to any local business. I think from the outside looking in, the differences between the Wedge and Trader Joe’s seem stark, but they aren’t. Commenters at Heavy Table and elsewhere picked up a meme of “The Wedge will be fine,” that we sell local, and Trader Joe’s doesn’t. We sell great produce, they don’t. The fact of the matter is that our “center store” and frozen foods departments, which actually compromise a huge percentage of the Wedge’s sales, have already felt a big negative impact from the Excelsior Trader Joe’s five miles away.
Lisa Malmarowski of Outpost in Milwaukee, a co-op that has been head to head with TJ for a couple years now, had this to say about a TJ a half block from the Wedge (Heavy Table Comments):
“As someone who works at a co-op in a different city where a TJ’s opened about 3 miles away, I can tell you that indeed the Wedge will be affected and you’re fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise. Our co-op was affected, we saw sales decline and we had to cut labor dollars and change our product mix. Yes, we’ve survived and are doing okay, but don’t kid yourselves. There are only so many food dollars a person has to spend each month.”
http://heavytable.com/proposed-trader-joes-near-the-wedge-co-op/#comment-1089
So this is what I think you’re missing, Erica. We’re not “whining.” We’re legitimately concerned about the prospect of a Trader Joe’s right in our neighborhood and facing the labor losses that our sister co-op in Milwaukee faced.
But here’s the catch. Making our argument all about the competition and asking Trader Joe’s to go away won’t work. They’re looking at 11 different sites in Mpls, so they’re coming into the city no matter what. The best we could do is address the liquor variance and hope to at least get them off our doorstep and give us some breathing room.
And the variance issue is of huge concern to a town that has not issued one for groceries in over 70 years. Like it or not (I’m not wild about the old blue laws myself), it’s a historical and cultural part of Minneapolis. Yet the city was downright eager to issue a variance for Trader Joe’s *and* plop them right in the backyard of a thriving local, community owned business to boot.
Does the Wedge want a variance, too? No, we haven’t wanted to step on Humms’ toes in the past. But you bet we want one if we have Three Buck Chuck on our doorstep. Will we get it? Maybe. But at that point the city better be ready for LOTS of requests from local groceries, if 2 variances get issued in short order (especially with those two variances so close to Rainbow, Lunds, and Kowalski’s as well).
The other issue is how fast this came up. It kicked into high gear this week, and our opportunities to speak with council people and legislators in order to make our case has been very limited. Has the city done a business impact analysis on the various changes that TJ will bring to Minneapolis? Council Person Bob Lilligren had no information in this regard when our General Manager asked him if he had consulted expert opinions on what TJ would do to local business. Has there been a traffic analysis for the neighborhood? There hasn’t been time. The TJ initiative has been totally green-lighted.
So that’s where we stand. If we sounded shrill in the process of getting the word out, sorry. But we weren’t left much choice in the city’s rush to get this variance to the State legislature for approval.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Nice post, Erica, and I tend to agree that the Wedge needs to be careful on how they present this issue. I also believe that the City needs to be careful on who gets a variance especially when it’s an nonlocal corporate entity. See KMart at Nicollet and Lake.
Is Trader Joe’s forcing the issue and saying they won’t sign the lease if they don’t get the variance? I haven’t seen that question brought up yet.
Whether the Wedge ends up selling beer, wine, or whiskey isn’t just in the hands of government bodies. It would also have to pass their internal governance (Board of Directors) and an issue like this could easily be escalated to a full member vote. The Wedge isn’t just local it’s also a cooperative which allows members to exercise democratic control.
I don’t understand why you all are dumping on the Wedge! Of course they are pissed! 1. The Wedge has been a leader in supporting local businesses (farmers, etc) and efforts for sustainability. TJ represents a model of “luxury” shopping that is the antithesis of the coop’s business and coop principles. 2. By granting TJ a liquor variance, they give them an unfair advantage over all the food and wine local businesses (not just Humm’s by the way). To say “why didn’t they just apply?” is to ignore the history of opposition by locals/officials to changing this law up to now, the business climate in which the Wedge made decisions about allocating space when they rebuilt, etc. 3> of course, they’re unhappy about the competition! It’s freakin’ economic crisis, and the city council is sending a big “eff you” message to the most local, sustainable business in the neighborhood in favor a business that will send its profits out of state. As a WEdge customer who has been to the St Louis park TJ’s twice and been disappointed every time, I wont’ shop at a new one, but I am sure that a lot of people will start going there if they can pick up a six-pack without having to drive elsewhere. Humm’s does not provide the lower=priced wine selection that TF’s does. Henn Lake is miles better but it’s an extra drive in bad traffic
I swear, the comments on this site are so typically Minnesotan ” what makes you so special?” chop off your nose to spite your face. REally? you’ll boycott the Wedge because they are trying to survive in a cutthroat business climate? Says a lot about the Prairie Home Companion as documentary rather than fiction.
Great roundup Erica, I had been only passively following the chatter from The Wedge this week and nice to see everything in one place. I’ve been living in the Wedge/Wittier Neighborhood for about a month now and like The Wedge, but I don’t like the way they are handling this. Everyone knows MN blue laws are antiquated, but The Wedge needs to come up with a better way to voice their concerns. If they never asked for the variance, they have no right to complain if someone else beats them to it.
Oh NO! the WEdge wasn’t NICE! They have”no right to complain” about unfair city council decisions that give an out-of-state business an advantage over local business!this sums it up for me. This dismissive illogical pseudo-fairness that in fact rewards unfairness is so reactionary. It’s the same thinking that got Norm Coleman elected after someone wasn’t “NICE” or “FAIR” at Wellstone’s memorial service. the tone is more important than the content, the issues, the politics, the rational thought process. It’s times like this when I just want Minnesotans to get over their knee-jerk “whining is the worst sin ever” thinking and look at the POLITICS: city council is screwing over local businesses. Period.
I will correct one wrong, as requested: I stop at Humm’s after going to the Wedge all the time. I’m sure I’m not the only one.
I guess the liquor licensing might be a big deal to the Wedge, but for me, a lifelong co-op shopper, the thoght of Trader Joe’s coming into Minneapolis is pretty threatening. They are owned by German conglomerate ALDI. ALDI! They are a for-profit corporation that suck money out of the local economy. Minnesota has the largest number of co-ops proportionally in the country and our co-ops support our booming local small farming industry. (For the past decade Minnesota’s small farm growth rate has been among the highest in the country). If people start spending their money at Trader Joe’s, they are doing absolutely nothing for our local economy. NOTHING! All Trader Joe’s will do is provide a wider selection of fancy beer, a couple jobs, and a traffic MESS.
…something else about this development that you should know if you support locally owned small businesses…Yes, this development means not only “competition” for local businesses, like the Wedge and Hum’s. But this development includes plans to demolish the building where our business, Sacred Rearrangements shop and healing center, is housed (2207 Lyndale). To relocate is a huge expense for a small business and impacts us in terms of a loss of customers who come here because they know the location, but couldn’t find it by name if we re-located. We are a three year old family run business that is actually surviving this economy. The destruction of the building not only affects us, but will impact the nine healing practitioners and teachers that are independent contractors, as well as all the artists that consign. Development is a natural part of the evolution of the city, but how can we help to create conscious development that doesn’t eliminate locally owned family businesses? That is the question at hand…
I’d be curious to know if TJ’s has made a “liquor variance or no store” demand. Not all TJ’s sell wine and beer; I’ve been to several (in other states) that don’t.
I vastly prefer the Wedge over TJ’s on the basis of their true local status, but the true “Minnesota” reaction here is to argue that TJ’s is somehow a “luxury” brand. It’s not, and it’s only in Minnesota that people equate TJ’s with wealthy suburban yuppies (as I’ve seen on several of these message boards).
As far as the larger community conversation goes, I wish there was more discussion in general about the importance of supporting local businesses. Focusing on TJ’s as the bad guy goes only so far; more useful in the long run is convincing people that it’s worth the potential extra money to support local businesses, farmers, etc. The city shouldn’t be giving one business unfair advantage over another, and that’s the Wedge’s valid argument, but they’re not in the business of stamping out competition, either. There’s always going to be some competition around the corner, and in general if we really want our local stores to continue to thrive we need to be willing to do our part to contribute to their successes.
My personal pet peeve about the Wedge (and this isn’t anything they have control over, of course) is how many people drive there; I realize that not everyone lives within walking distance, but how come so many people in Minneapolis think they have to drive to do all their grocery shopping? It’s an issue everywhere, of course, but I guess I’d like to think that the people who value the Wedge and its environmental benefits would walk/bike/bus more. (lots of people do, of course, but check out the parking lot and you’ll see that plenty of people don’t.) I’d like to see Minneapolis develop a stronger culture of smaller neighborhood markets (and co-ops), and of walking to the store rather than driving. I like the concept of shopping locally at the very local level.
Wikipedia has articles on both Trader Joe’s and the German company, ALDI Sud, which owns them. (There’s also an ALDI Nord, which is a separate company since 1960 when Albrecht brothers Theo & Karl had a dispute about selling cigarettes at the till.)
Interesting that when ALDI began in 1913 they saved money by not advertising. At that time, their main competition happened to be cooperatives.
I know of at least two ALDI stores in Minneapolis: one on Franklin near Bloomington and the other across the street from the Midtown YWCA. Trader Joe products are beginning to appear in ALDI stores but not vice-versa.
(All this according to Wikipedia so use whatever grain of salts you need.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trader_Joe
The primary issue here is supporting a store that contributes back to the community and Minnesota growers and producers. I would think people would begin to see the importance of a sustainable local economy by now.
Trader Joe’s may not compete in the area of prepackaged foods, but that’s not what anyone should be buying anyhow. Your Trader Giottos and Trader Ming’s products are shipped from all over the world–for the sake of those who would rather not cook; and then the money goes out of state. Imagine what could be saved if people brought their own jars and used store bulk bins, and gave more attention to cooking.
TJ’s offers nothing unique outside of alcohol and prepared foods, everything else can be found at the already numerous uptown grocers.
Great post, Erica, and thanks also to Barth, for your clarifications on the Wedge’s point of view.
I understand better now why the Wedge latched on to the liquor license issue, but it is clear from all the comments here and other that the public is getting the wrong message about the Wedge’s intentions and priorities. It may be the most expedient way of counter-attacking the competitive threat was to focus on the liquor license, but it seems to me it may be a distraction, at least as far as public relations go.
Personally, I am more sympathetic to the issue of parking and traffic in the neighborhood, which is already at capacity. That said, I’d love to see a TJ’s in Minneapolis. Though I’ve been a loyal Wedge member and shopper for 15 years and plan to continue, I already shop at TJ’s for certain things. It’d be great if I could reduce my carbon footprint by avoiding the drive to St. Louis Park. Someone on another forum suggested Hiawatha Ave, and I think that’d be a much more suitable location.
First off, a fact. The developer stated TJs will not open if they do not have liquor. He stated this at the Whittier Alliance meeting on April 13, 2009.
There is a problem with the developer and the truth.
He pre-sold this development with the concept of a Boutique Wine shop, never revealing it was TJs. I am sorry but TJs is not a Boutique Wine shop. Walk their SLP facility and besides 3 buck chuck it is nothing more than an offering of a select few of better selling wines in the lower price points. A further examination will reveal they do not sell any Minnesota products. In beer they do not sell Summit, Surly, Schell’s, New Glarus or Lake Superior. They do not carry Minnesota’s own Alexi Baily, Fieldstone Vineyards, St. Croix Vineyards etc.
The pricing on the their products is also average. It is not as well priced as say, Hennepin Lake Liquor which is also in the neighborhood.
At this same meeting the developer stated TJs would do 10 mil a year in sales with 25% of it in wine and spirits.
Although TJs will draw customers from out of the area the bulk of this will come out of the other local merchants ‘piece of the pie.’ As TJs adds more stores in the Twin Cities the number of shoppers from out the area should decline, I would think.
Due the math, that is why there is concern.
hey Wedge – it’s called competition, get used to it. If your store really does sell superior local products, what are you so worried about? Oh yeah, the liquor license. The one you never applied for a variance for. The one that states the requirements your store does not meet to sell liquor.
Sorry, but a TJ going in might hurt your business, but competition is good for us consumers. You have enjoyed a monopoly in the Whitter neighborhood for how long now?
“TJ’s offers nothing unique outside of alcohol and prepared foods”
Umm, that is their entire store. Have you ever been to a TJs?? They are not so much as a bulk foods grocery store as much as they are like a Simeks selling mostly their own branded prepared foods. And really cheap. If you can point out to me where else in Minneapolis I can buy 2 bottles of wine (that is drinkable) with a ten and still get change back, I’d love to hear about it.
In response to, “Correct me if I’m wrong, but the typical Humm’s customer is totally not the kind of person that frequents The Wedge,” I would say you are indeed wrong. The proximity of the two stores and the largely youthful demographic of the neighborhood makes for HUGE crossover between the co-op and the nearest liqour store. In the context of the larger story, it’s a minor point, but I would hope that the patrons of these stores would still feel loyal the these businesses if the TJ does open.
I am with the others who shop at both the Wedge and Humm’s. Don’t judge a shop’s clientele by their employees, please.
There is just no comparison for what the Wedge brings to the community of Whittier, and it is so much more than being the only grocery store in the immediate vicinity. Those of you who think this is all about competition and the Wedge being a bunch of granola weenies need to learn about economics. Trader joe’s in that location could take as much as 40% of both Humm’s and the Wedge, especially considering how many wedge customers would probably be driving north on Lyndale, right past the Trader Joe’s. That’s a big deal.
Trader Joe’s business model is based on quantity, just like a feedlot, and it produces waste in proportion. We’re running out of time to leverage Mother Nature for our bottom line; organic is not necessarily environmentally friendly. And then there’s the whole supporting our local economy thing. The Wedge isn’t just “raising a stink” for their own survival, we’re talking about Humm’s and all the local farmers. These are your neighbors, folks. For 4$ wine? Just ridiculous.
Don’t you dare bring your race-to-the-bottom to my neighborhood.
“Trader joe’s in that location could take as much as 40% of both Humm’s and the Wedge, especially considering how many wedge customers would probably be driving north on Lyndale, right past the Trader Joe’s. That’s a big deal.”
No, that is competition. Look, I know people who drive for hours to come and shop at the Wedge. Seeing what they offer, and what Trader Joe’s offers, I really don’t think they would take a huge hit as their customers tend to be from wildly different demographics. To the people who still want to buy their $5 organic small farm tomatoes, they will ALWYAS go to the Wedge. TJ’s isn’t a co-op, or even close to selling products like the Wedge does. If the Wedge is so great and so vital to the neighborhood, it can survive a little competition. And where are you getting 40% from?? I think you just pulled that number right out of your…. If you are using owrds like “could take” and “up to x%” why not go full on and say “could take up to 110% of the Wedge’s business from them” – my number is just as valid as yours. We both pulled it from the same place. The truth is, nobody knows how much having a TJ’s would impact either the Wedge or Humms until it is actually there and there are hard numbers to look at.
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